I have been very happy with KDE3.5 series. I'm very glad it is being maintained. Thank you. From my own perspective I think 4.3 is the best release of the KDE4 so far, as in I can do work with it rather than wrestle with it. The big problem for me is SPEED. I think we here know very subjectively the KDE3.5 flies and KDE4 seems to crawl. There was a very interesting discussion by Zack Rusin on QT drawing performance: http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2009/08/2d-in-kde.html Solving this problem in a network aware and hardware accelerated way on all cards, will make a massive difference to KDE4 perception. For me Plasmoids are not vastly useful. I prefer apps in windows to apps on desktops. To be honest I think if Kicker was ported to KDE4 then a lot of people might be won over. Or a Plasma-lite option. Anyway this is about KDE3. Thanks for continued development - it fulfills a massive need. Kevin On Sunday 23 August 2009, kb9vqf@... wrote: > Hi Dotan, > > I'm pretty busy at the moment, but I will definitely try to provide > specific examples of what I am talking about. I have to load up KDE4.3 > and KDE3.5 in a VM, and then I will take screenshots side-by-side of the > equivalent programs, with the items that are unintuitive or difficult to > use in KDE4.3 highlighted. Will this help? > > Hmm...a KDE3.5.11 release isn't a bad idea at all. I'd still like to make > a few more changes to the UI before another release, but it's a worthy > goal. Trouble is, I have no idea how to get my changes into the KDE SVN > and actually make a release! Any help here would be greatly appreciated. > > One other thing. Microsoft removed the classic option in Vista--I used it > for one day before deciding it was easier (and better) to go to Linux than > to put up with that garbage. I have also used a very recent Mac desktop > in a store (they had one on display that you could use), and I actually > counted the mouse clicks needed to do a simple task like creating, > renaming, and deleting a folder on the desktop. I counted over three > times the number of clicks for each operation vs. KDE3.5 or Windows XP. I > left wondering why people use Macs at all! > > I didn't know you could put the network manager on the panel. I still > like a tray icon with context menus much better; I'm glad they put one > back in. > > Look for the comparison screenshots on this list in the coming weeks. > > Thanks for trying to make KDE4 better for all of us! > > Timothy Pearson > KDE3.5 Maintainer > > >> While I don't agree with the tone of some of the replies you received (I > >> do appreciate what you are doing here) I need to respond to this > >> particular point. > > > > Excellent, your opinion of the situation is by far the most informed > > opinion that I expect to hear here! > > > >> I *am* developing KDE3. Â If you look in the PPA that I maintain, you > >> will > >> see a whole slew of my patches that add new features, fix old bugs, and > >> generally keep the code compilable and functional as the backend > >> libraries > >> change over time. > > > > While I was aware that you were cleaning up the bitrot to maintain > > compatibility with certain libraries as time moves on, I did not > > realize that you are performing actual bugfixes and adding new > > features. However, that is great for KDE users of [k]Ubuntu, not KDE > > in general. I would argue that you are maintaining Kubuntu. Have you > > considered contacting a KDE representative and releasing KDE 3.5.11 or > > even KDE 3.6? Would you like me to see exactly how that would be done? > > > > My intention is not to belittle the effort that you are investing for > > the community. Quite the opposite, believe me, I respect your effort, > > your time, and your dedication more than most. And those who don't, > > will, should the day come when you can no longer maintain the project. > > (tfu tfu tfu). > > > >> Now, from all appearances, *if* I were to stop development then yes, KDE > >> would bitrot and become unusable--purely because no one else has stepped > >> forward to assist. > > > > So it only takes one bus accident? > > > >> I use KDE3.5 for a different purpose than some. Â My desktop is > >> configured > >> to look, feel, and act like an enhanced version of Windows XP in > >> "Classic" > >> mode. Â Like it or not, and I know many would argue with me, Microsoft > >> had > >> one of the best desktop interfaces available with that release. Â If > >> they > >> hadn't abandoned it, I would still be an avid Microsoft user. > > > > They hadn't. Isn't it an option in Windows today? I have never used > > Vista or 7, but my Windows XP VM uses the lightweight, readable > > Classic interface. > > > >> Likewise, I know I will be argued with up and down on this, but KDE4 > >> seems, from a look-n-feel perspective only, to be a hybrid of Windows > >> Vista and the latest Mac OS. Â I hate those two operating systems. Â In > >> almost every design choice. Â Period. > > > > I have not used the two OSes that you compare KDE 4 to, but I very > > much enjoy KDE 4.3. We are branching into three fronts, so I will > > separate them: > > > > 1) What it looks like: > > I agree that KDE 4 looks like Mac and Vista. That does not bother me > > as I have no grudge against those systems. > > > > 2) How it is operated: > > I do not know how Vista / OS-X are operated, but I find KDE 4.3 to be > > less intuitive than KDE 3.5. This is a point in which the KDE 3 > > holdouts can help! The KDE devs, and even myself, are so used to KDE > > 4. after working with it for so long that we don't see what is not > > intuitive anymore. Let me know what you find unintuitive (like the > > panel configuration) and I will file bugs on it. This is very > > important, and only the KDE 3 holdouts can help here. > > > > 3) What it can do: > > I can do everything in KDE 4.3 that I could in KDE 3. I may do some of > > them differently, but all can get done. However, for _you_ it might be > > different, and I need to know what is missing for _you_ in KDE 4. > > > >> I am not alone here. Â Many engineers I have talked with do not like the > >> new interface. Â There are some of us who use a GUI simply because more > >> information can be placed on it, and many tasks made faster, than the > >> command line. Â Gnome and KDE4 don't have very much *useful* and > >> *relevant* > >> information on the screen at any given time. Â These people have also > >> mentioned that the interface has a clunky feel, that they are having > >> difficulty just getting basic tasks done in a streamlined, efficient > >> fashion. Â Simply, more clicks required in the UI per task == more time > >> wasted. > > > > I would love to hear the details. If you prefer off-list, I'm here. If > > you write off list then please write to the address kb9vqf at > > dotancohen d o t c o m. Thanks. > > > >> The clunkiness has a direct impact on this. Â The DE should recede into > >> the > >> background, not constantly push its way into the foreground. Â When it > >> shoves its way into the users programs, in the form of excessively large > >> menu bars, taskbars, and buttons, valuable screen space is stolen from > >> the > >> user's application, forcing more scrolling, window management > >> operations, > >> and application menu use inside the user's program. > > > > I do not feel that what you describe is the case with KDE 4.3. I do > > not like the toolbar buttons' default to having the text shown as well > > as the icon, but other than that I do not find the interface to be > > excessively large. > > > >> This is a common flaw with the new direction all desktops seem to be > >> heading in. Â They are all pretty (well, actually, the Mac OS is pretty, > >> while Vista and KDE4 are really ugly), and seem to work well--until you > >> try to use them in your job, when you have 4 clients and 2 managers > >> demanding you get X, Y, and Z done *NOW*. Â Then you find that in order > >> to > >> multitask in any sensible form you will need to learn to click > >> constantly, > >> everywhere, and end up purchasing a really big replacement monitor. > >> Â Yet, > >> somehow, your old monitor was perfectly adequate under Windows XP and > >> KDE3.5. Â Your programs haven't changed. Â So why again is your DE > >> forcing > >> you to buy new hardware and slowing you down? > > > > I am not doubting you, but I do not perceive this problem with KDE 4. > > Can you maybe send to me a screenshot of the same interface elements > > in both KDE 3 and 4 for comparison (the defaults). I will take it up > > on the usability list. Your assumptions and statements are correct in > > the general sense, but I fail to see where that they apply to KDE 4. > > > >> I have even caused some older folks, who have used Windows since it came > >> out, to switch to Linux. Â How? Â By showing them a truly better desktop > >> interface: Windows XP classic + some sorely needed features--in other > >> words, KDE3.5. Â They all hated where Windows was going, and Mac was too > >> limiting. > > > > I have seen this too, with MS Office users flocking to OOo. > > > >> So, rant aside, try adding a "super-tiny-taskbar, icons, buttons, and > >> menus" option. > > > > I will file a bug on that, and I will mention it on the usability list. > > > >>Â Also make an "angular buttons option" so that they can be > >> compacted on the screen the way they always were. Â (Actually IIRC that > >> last one finally does exist in KDE3). > > > > Please be very specific, I will file a feature request. > > > >> Also, make it so that the shiny stuff can be turned off. Â Menu drop > >> shadows are OK, but shiny rounded menus are distracting. > > > > That is configurable in KDE 4.3. > > > >> Bring back the old KDE control center. > > > > The KDE 4.3 System Settings has the familiar tree menu. In that > > configuration, it resembles Kcontrol very well. If there are other > > elements of Kcontrol that you miss, please tell me what they are. > > > >> Bring back task tray icons as plasmoid replacements. Â I DON'T LIKE > >> having > >> to minimize my windows (an extra click) to get at something critical > >> like > >> the network manager plasmoid and then have to un-minimize them all again > >> when I am done (another extra click). > > > > The network manager plasmoid could have been on your panel. In any > > case, it is now in the system tray. But I understand your point in > > general, however each fix needs an individual bug report. So lay 'em > > on! Which functionality that you have on the panel in KDE 3 cannot be > > had on the panel in KDE 4.3? > > > >>Â To say nothing of having to check > >> connectivity in another program and then go back to the > >> plasmoid....click > >> click click click click....grrrr...Windows was so much better... Â This > >> is > >> a massive waste of the user's time and is, bluntly, a really, really > >> stupid design decision. Â You NEVER want to make the users think what I > >> just wrote. > > > > It is not like that anymore, at least, not for the network manager. > > > >> I like putting icons on my desktop. Â Only icons. Â Can we turn off that > >> stupid cashew yet? > > > > No. Sorry. Write to Aaron personally on that one! > > > >> The UI fonts are way too large. > > > > So change them! I think that they're great, and of the 5-10 KDE > > 4.[2|3] installs that I have performed for people, the only ones who > > mentioned the fonts were those who liked them. > > > >> Why can't I *easily* and *intuitively* reconfigure something as basic as > >> my desktop??? > > > > Because you haven't complained to _me_ yet! Seriously, be specific > > about what is unintuitive and I will file the bugs. I agreet hat KDE 4 > > is not yet intuitive enough but the devs are used to it: they need > > _you_ to tell them what is not intuitive. > > > >> You get the point. Â Many of these items are design decisions that the > >> developers made to "set KDE4 apart". Â I don't think they will be fixed > >> anytime soon. Â Feel free to surprise me though! :-) > > > > I have been pleasantly surprised by KDE 4.2 and 4.3, the devs are > > really starting to take into consideration what the users want. Just > > let me know what that is. > > > > Thanks, Timothy, I look forward to hearing the specifics. > > > > > > -- > > Dotan Cohen > > > > http://what-is-what.com > > http://gibberish.co.il -- Kevin Colyer YWAM National Director (interim) YWAM Brussels Team leader/Responsable de JEM Bruxelles Avenue Des Celtes, 19 1040 Bruxelles Belgium Tel: +32 (0) 2 736 33 63 Fax: +32 (0) 2 738 02 40 GSM: +32 (0) 484 683 003 GSM: +44 (0) 7967 105 273 (only outside Belgium) http://www.ywambrussels.be skype: kevincolyerwork